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Tuesday, March 01, 2005

Cowards for Torture


Where's Osama?


Right Hook
Why have conservatives been silent about new evidence that the Bush administration sanctioned torture? Victor Davis Hanson and Jonah Goldberg tell us.

National Review Online editor at large Jonah Goldberg is one who subscribes to that view.

"There are a lot of people who support the war who simply understand that these are some of the lesser evils of fighting a war on terrorism," Goldberg said in a phone interview.

That's in spite of the fact, he says, that some detainees who have been tortured turn out to be innocent.

"To be brutally honest, I'm torn about it. I don't mean to be callous about it: I think the U.S. government should do everything it can to see to it that innocent people don't get treated horribly. I don't know anybody on the right who would say, 'I'm in favor of innocent people being tortured.' But that said, I think a lot of people on the right are skeptical of hype: That the allegations are not nearly as horrendous or as widespread a matter of policy as the media portrays."

Goldberg adds that many Bush supporters are more "realist" than their detractors say. "For an undertaking of this scale, this war is probably one of the most humanitarian efforts the U.S. has ever conducted, in terms of limiting civilian casualties and all of these things. What you get is an environment in which the U.S. gets punished for only being good, and not being perfect," he says. "But many people I know don't buy into the notion that wars which need to be won can be fought as antiseptically as people who are against the war claim they should be."

For him, that concept extends to the clandestine activities of the U.S. government. "If, because of a legal regime in the U.S. which guarantees the civil liberties of Americans -- and I'm all in favor of that -- we have to go to other countries in order to successfully interrogate terrorists, then I'm not horrified by that proposition," Goldberg says. And while he concedes that it fundamentally contradicts what the United States stands for, "what undermines what we stand for," he says, "is the publication of all this information."

"We did all sorts of terrible things in World War II, and there was a reason why we had military censors," he says. "I do think there's a reason why the CIA does this stuff in secret, and why I think it should do a lot of things in secret. These things have a lot of propaganda value, both negative and positive, so I think we need to separate out what we think are 'good policies' from what the consequences are if those policies are publicized."

"There are lots of things that are ugly and terrible about war," Goldberg adds. "I think that people on the right are more comfortable allowing for that."


So the gutless coward with the she-bitch mommy speaks again.

He's all for raping and beating them sand niggers because they is all enemies of Americans.

Before you're tempted to shove a white feather up his ass, let me explain why torture is a bad idea.

Jonah,

How's your feather collection? Probably enough to vein some faux-marble? Maybe do a mural of a chickenhawk in flight?

So, when did the OSS torture people? I mean, when did they walk into POW camps and starting giving the Germans what for? When did the Counter Intelligence Corps torture Germans? You mean they didn't? When the allegations of torture following Malmedy were raised in the trials of the SS murderers in 1948, guess who condemned it? Joe McCarthy, your patron saint of corrupt fear mongering.

Why didn't the US torture German POW's? Because the Nazis would do the same to US flyers and did to US evaders and escapers. Ever hear of the Great Escape? I know you have. But what you may not realize is that Hitler's order to kill 50 escapers scared the shit out of the Luftwaffe, because they were afraid the Brits would line up 50 of their men and blow them away. One day, Americans may be subjected to brutal deaths because of torture already commited by the US.

Do you think the US has allies in Pakistan after stories of Gitmo makes the rounds off the jury rigged deportations. If people didn't languish in jail for years and weren't beaten shitless, the methods used to round them up would be comical. In many cases, they were sold to SF and the CIA by bounty hunters. Abusing the innocent only aides Osama "the man who's name cannot be spoken" Bin Laden.

I would say Jonah needs to cover the war in Iraq and see if his appetite for torture diminishes.

Because he's a fucking idiot. You know when all those folks we subjected to rendition walk into a US court, it will be hard for a jury to convict them, or to even allow any evidence against them.

I wonder if Mr. Goldberg would like to be subjected to the things he thinks are fit for others.

Iraqi: So you know President Bush?

JG: Not personally.

Iraqi: Turn up the voltage. He is lying. I read English Goldberg. I know you are close to the White House, you and your neocon friends

JG: It's just a magazineeeeeeeee aaaaaaaaahhhh STOP!!!!!

Iraqi: But you think torture is neccessary for your imperialism. Well it is also neccessary for our Jihad. Put him in the bucket

JG: Noooooooo!!!!!! (30 seconds later) GASP, Jesus, I don't know the President.

Iraqi: Do you think we are hajis, stupid sand niggers? I have lived in England and your precious United States. Your magazine is read in the White House, your writers have access. We are winning, you stupid fat pig. Do you want to see that precious daughter and wife of yours? Or would you like to star in our next Internet video.

JG: Video? Never.

Iraqi: That's what you think. Do you know what they did in Abu Gharib? They would rape the women in front of their children to get them to talk. But they didn't know anything, because we are professionals who do not talk in front of women and children.

JG: Just like Saddam taught you

Iraqi
: (Slap to face) Saddam? Saddam killed my family because we despised his infidel ways. Do not assume you fat American. We learned much from Saddam, and that was to resist. You Americans will never convert us to Christianity and defile our women.

JG: But we wanted to liberate you

Iraqi: Put him in the bucket again

JG: Noooooo Glug, Glug GASP

Iraqi: You rape our women, murder our children and call it liberation? I guess the British liberated you in your Revolutionary War.

JG: But Saddam was evil

Iraqi: Did anyone invite you here? Or did you invade? Did you really think we would be happy to have infidels come here? That we would throw flowers at your feet? Cooperate and we will let you go. If you fight us, you will suffer.


Now, imagine this going on for two years. No matter what you say, it's never enough. Maybe the Americans just played with heat, light and used psychological pressure, but torture is torture and the goal is to break men down. Would Goldberg, who's cowardice is already an established fact, like to be humiliated and tortured for months, even years on end?

Interogation works well, when done intelligently. But torture fails. It failed for the French in Algeria, it failed for the North Vietnamese in Vietnam. It only hardens the determination of others to resist. How many guerrillas did Abu Gharib make? Between the prisoners and their families, how many people did we push off the fence into opposing us? The neocons think we live immune to history and consequences and we do not. The seem to be clueless about how hated we are around the world. Max Boot proposed a "freedom legion" of immigrant mercenaries to fight America's wars. Who the hell would join besides Mexicans looking for US citizenship. This kind of silliness is what passes for intellectual thought on the right.

Torture, mercenaries, we've seen this and it didn't keep Algeria French or South Africa white and it won't win the war on terror. Only by standing for something more than an imperial America, one that Americans don't want, can we win, and we are far from that now.

posted by Steve @ 1:54:00 AM

1:54:00 AM

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